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Thread: 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport

  1. #51
    On A Leash Because I Was Naughty Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soopa7fly
    "There are also some situations in which four-wheel drive provides no advantage over two-wheel drive. Most notably, four-wheel-drive systems won't help you stop on slippery surfaces. It's all up to the brakes and the anti-lock braking system (ABS)."
    if you want to argue with this, then fine, but the guy who wrote the article is a mechanical engineer from cornell who worked for caterpillar and desgined HEV's. im sure he knows more than you.
    Example 1 - Descending down a snowy hill. You apply the brakes to stop. You slide. Place the transmission in Reverse, lock the diff, and release the brake. Right now, Reverse + Traction is preventing you from sliding down the hill.
    Example 2 - No ABS, and usual 70-30 braking ratio F/R. You apply the brakes, your front tires lock up, your back tires continue to push the vehicle. From the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip... now the power is taken away from the ones pushing you because the resistence from the brakes up front is now seen as "traction".

    If you are on ice, the only thing helping you stop is an anchor, or studded tires.
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  2. #52
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    example 1: who the hell would put their transmission in reverse while they were moving forward going down a hill? why dont you just do it driving down the road at 10mph? if youre going down a hill and you want to stop, shift into a lower gear until youre at a speed where you can stop without sliding.

    example 2: what are you talking about? i dont have ABS, and i have 4 wheel drive, braking in 4 wheel drive makes NO difference. you must be thinking about some sort of electronically controlled braking system, which DOES exist. it transfers braking power based upon which wheels have traction to stop, but thats a BRAKING SYSTEM, not a 4 wheel drive system. and this system only exists with ABS, if you dont have ABS, pump your brakes or downshift, thats all you can do, it doesnt matter if youre in 4 wheel or not.

  3. #53
    Lifetime User Fetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    I was referring to a 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport. Which when placed in 4HI is part time 4WD. When you place the shifter in 4HI a light on the dash indicates that PART TIME has been activated. I experimented with this many times. Place in 4HI, do burnout. Initially only the back tire(s) spin, then the front. I don't care about other 4x4 setups, only the one in question.
    4HI is part time... it definately says so right in the gauges
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  4. #54
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    part time isnt specifically restricted to what jack is talking about. my 4 wheel drive is considered part time. basically anything that isnt AWD is part time.

  5. #55
    On A Leash Because I Was Naughty Jack's Avatar
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    If you are sliding down a hill... reverse is the only thing that will help you. I don't think your seeing things clearly... If you are sliding... that means you are not rolling... which means your tires are not spinning 10mph, which means putting it in reverse will have no ill effects on the drivetrain at all. Obviously the brakes aren't helping you... reverse is your friend.

    Also - If you want to talk about other 4WD systems, thats fine, but this thread is about 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport. Last time I tried locking up the brakes in 4HI in a 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport when the front brakes locked up... the back tires stopped moving. When I did it an hour ago in my 2WD Chevy 1500WT Pickup truck, it almost pushed me into the neighbor's fence.
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  6. #56
    thats JackS to you Choda's Avatar
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    on reverse when sliding, it does work, it would be one thing to slam the tranny into R when the tires are moving in the foward direction, but when all 4 are locked up, put it in reverse and eas on the gas, if u floor it, especially in my truck the tires will just spin.

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

  7. #57
    Sr. User mike125k's Avatar
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    I could add to this whole debate, but I'm too lazy right now. What would I know anyways...I was only the Ranger/Explorer/Sport Trac transfer case engineer the past year at Ford...

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    thats JackS to you Choda's Avatar
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    ^^^

    know anything about 88 bronco transfer boxes

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    If you are sliding down a hill... reverse is the only thing that will help you. I don't think your seeing things clearly... If you are sliding... that means you are not rolling... which means your tires are not spinning 10mph, which means putting it in reverse will have no ill effects on the drivetrain at all. Obviously the brakes aren't helping you... reverse is your friend.
    i still dont think thats a good choice considering downshifting is much safer than throwing it in reverse while your sliding forward with the brakes locked up then flooring it in 4 wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    Also - If you want to talk about other 4WD systems, thats fine, but this thread is about 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport. Last time I tried locking up the brakes in 4HI in a 2004 Jeep Liberty Sport when the front brakes locked up... the back tires stopped moving. When I did it an hour ago in my 2WD Chevy 1500WT Pickup truck, it almost pushed me into the neighbor's fence.
    1st, im telling you thats not an attribute of a 4wd system, i think its called active BRAKING, its a BRAKING SYSTEM, not a 4wd system. it works by applying different amounts of breaking power to wheels that the sensors determine can stop better than other wheels. if you can show me something written by a credible author saying that whatever youre talking about is an attribute of a 4wd system, and not a braking system, i will gladly bow down and before you and apologize.

    2nd, how do you lock up the brakes with ABS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike125k
    I could add to this whole debate, but I'm too lazy right now. What would I know anyways...I was only the Ranger/Explorer/Sport Trac transfer case engineer the past year at Ford...
    i ask that you add to this debate. i dont mind being wrong, but id like some more fact than ''ive driven everything, i know how it works''

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    On A Leash Because I Was Naughty Jack's Avatar
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    I didn't say I knew how it works, but when it works, and I see it, I tend to "know it happened".

    BTW - Mike we aren't talking about POS Fords... so your comments would be unnecessary anyways

    I agree to disagree, but my experience speaks for itself, and yours may differ. I don't know if you have ever driven a Liberty.. or an 04 Liberty Sport... but I have many times, and thats all I can talk about. I've also driven every other vehicle on the planet and I know what I like most for different situations.
    Updating...
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    thats JackS to you Choda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soopa7fly
    i still dont think thats a good choice considering downshifting is much safer than throwing it in reverse while your sliding forward with the brakes locked up then flooring it in 4 wheel.
    what would that do, all ur doin is changing the gear, UR STILL SLIDING DOWN A HILL WITH THE TIRES LOCKED UP, the whole point of putting it in reverse is to turn the tires the opposite way = stop sliding or slow the sliding.

    ex = have some one sit in a car, put the brakes on, push the car foward.... now try it with the car in reverse. its the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    I've also driven every other vehicle on the planet and I know what I like most for different situations.




    mike - full size 351, my question is the shifter goes from 2H, up into 4H no prob, and up again into N, with no problem, but when i try to go into 4L, it doesn wanna go, should i pull harder, or check on linkage.

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

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    Sr. User mike125k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choda
    ^^^

    know anything about 88 bronco transfer boxes
    full size bronco or bronco II? i dont know much on the big broncos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Choda
    what would that do, all ur doin is changing the gear, UR STILL SLIDING DOWN A HILL WITH THE TIRES LOCKED UP, the whole point of putting it in reverse is to turn the tires the opposite way = stop sliding or slow the sliding.
    let your foot off the brake, downshift. try it, it slows you down. you cant have your wheels locked with your foot off the brake. this is what you do when youre offroading and coming down a big hill, your brakes are generally pretty useless because youll either burn them out or slide. so you creep down the hill in 1st gear with your foot off of every pedal. your vehicle speed is limited by the drive ratio of the gear.

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    On A Leash Because I Was Naughty Jack's Avatar
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    that would only make it a controlled downhill decent.

    We want to stop on a hill... and reverse is the only way.
    Updating...
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    Don't Bitch About Gas Prices or I Will FUCKING KILL YOU!!1 Bigairskier1580's Avatar
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    Braking on an All-wheel or 4x4 auto isn't better.

    However, honestly stopping is. Engine braking allows you to have much more control on the AWD/4x4 car.

    I owned a Camry and now the Talon. Both had brand new winterforce snow tires, and weigh the same exact weight. Brakes of similar sizes too. neither have ABS, the Talon does, but does it work? No. And the Talon can be brought to a complete stop in the snow WAY better than the Camry through effective engine braking.

    Does that give me the right to drive beyond my limits? No. Just make sure you know your limits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    I didn't say I knew how it works, but when it works, and I see it, I tend to "know it happened".


    I agree to disagree, but my experience speaks for itself, and yours may differ. I don't know if you have ever driven a Liberty.. or an 04 Liberty Sport... but I have many times, and thats all I can talk about. I've also driven every other vehicle on the planet and I know what I like most for different situations.
    you may have a lot of experience, but you may be confusing one system from another. a 4 wheel drive system, consisting of a transfercase, driveshaft, differential, axle, and all their interior components, are not involved with braking. there are braking systems which do what you describe, but its a braking system that works in conjunction with ABS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigairskier1580
    Braking on an All-wheel or 4x4 auto isn't better.
    jack isnt talking about engine braking.

    jack, if you downshift to a controlled speed, you CAN brake without sliding.

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    thats JackS to you Choda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soopa7fly
    let your foot off the brake, downshift. try it, it slows you down. you cant have your wheels locked with your foot off the brake. this is what you do when youre offroading and coming down a big hill, your brakes are generally pretty useless because youll either burn them out or slide. so you creep down the hill in 1st gear with your foot off of every pedal. your vehicle speed is limited by the drive ratio of the gear.
    i dont think u are seeing what i am...

    this is about sliding down a hill, sliding means = brakes on, and still moving, if this was about driving down a hill then yes, downshifting would slow u down, ive done it alot.

    the whole purpose of countering sliding is to stop or slow the movement.

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

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    ^^ i edited my post, read up

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    there is no control, u are sliding.

    again sliding is when ur allready on the brakes, allready in motion, so when u sliding, ur gonna take ur foot off the brake, which isnt sliding anymore, now its just driving (because u are still in gear), and then downshift into a lower gear.

    (1 more point that i havent brought up is that when i do any field/snow/mud driving i put my truck in 1st gear(auto) and 4H. soo there is no downshifting, but for sake of staying on topic ill just keep saying downshifting)

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Choda
    there is no control, u are sliding.
    again sliding is when ur allready on the brakes, allready in motion, so when u sliding, ur gonna take ur foot off the brake, which isnt sliding anymore, now its just driving (because u are still in gear), and then downshift into a lower gear.
    when you are sliding, the goal is to get control, then stop. so if youre already on the brakes, take your foot off of them, then yes you wouldnt be sliding, you would be ''driving'' then you downshift and eventually stop.

    a perfect example of this: go to driving school. they teach you this: if you are driving down the road and you lose control, your FIRST concern is to regain control. trying to stop when you are not in control of your vehicle is the worst thing you can do. when you have control of your vehicle is when you try to stop.

  23. #73
    Sr. User mike125k's Avatar
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    You see a little bit better braking on 4WD because your two axles are coupled together. The front wheels (which receive the majority of your braking force) slow the front axle, which in turn will back up the driveline and slow the entire driveline, this includes the rear wheels too. Should you drive like a douche because of this? NO. It provides a SMALL amount of help, nothing very substantial. It still all comes down to available traction for the tires.

    Most (as in 95% of trucks/SUVs except for a few newer ones) t cases do not have differential. They are all fully locked when you put it in 4hi or 4low. If you want to think of it like a spool, fine, its like a spool. When your "part time" light comes on it means you should only use it part time becuase your t case is locked splitting torque 50/50. When you shift the level, push button, whatever. You are actually engaging a slip shaft in the t case and have a mechanial link between front and rear driveshafts for a locked 50/50 split.

    Even though this is a perfect bias, it never really is. You always have different amounts of torque actually making it to the wheels (for various reasons that are not important in this discussion). That is why you get "crow hopping" around turns (front wheels skipping) and other feels that don't quite feel normal. This is the front axle not spinning at exactally the same speed as the rear axle thus your wheels are littereally fighting each other. This is why you should not use 4WD on dry or even rainy pavement. Your driveline does not like this!

    Those 4 auto modes starting to pop up on newer vehicles do not lock the t case. They typically have an electronically activated clutch pack which can bias torque to whichever axle needs it. These can be driven on dry pavement because they are actually running in 2WD mode most of the time (or something similar, like a 90/10 split or something). The big advantage to these type is the computer can send power to whatever axle it needs to in milliseconds. The 2006 Explorer and soon to come out 2007 Sport Trac with these can send between 0-100% of the engines torque to either axle in (I forget how many milliseconds). They begin to bias torque when the computer sees just 1/4 turn of rear wheel slip. I'm not sure on others, but I'm sure they're about the same.

    Ranger's still have an old style t case. Where 4hi and 4lo physically locks the gears together for a 50/50 bias. Same with the F-150. Expeditions use a combination of this and the electronic clutch for the 4 auto mode.

    Alot of these systems are starting to use the clutch pack for 4hi mode too. When you put it in 4hi they just send juice to the clutch pack to grab all the time. This gives you close to your 50/50 split (depending how strong your clutch pack is and how the system is calibrated).

    Some of the 4 auto modes, or AWD systems use a viscous coupling differential to bias power. This is a fluid filled mechanical device that operates on the principles of fluid mechanics. They have no electronic intervention. When they see a speed differential the blades in it begin to shear the fluid which expands to put pressure on the plates sending power to both driveshafts.

    The final type of center differential is an open center diff, just like your diffs in your axles. These are set to a pre determined ratio (based on location/offset of the planetary gears in them, ie: its complicated).

    I don't know a ton about GM and Chrysler t cases which are made by New Venture Gear in Syracuse. I tore apart a few of them to benchmark against ours. Mainly I know Borg Warners t cases which Ford uses. They actually have the best electronic clutched automatic 4WD system out of the big 3 for trucks/SUVs right now. I'm not just saying that because I worked on them either.

  24. #74
    thats JackS to you Choda's Avatar
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    ^^ so there is better breaking.

    when i was sliding down the hill in my truck in 2wd, i wasnt concerened on getting control of which way i was sliding, doesnt matter if im sliding sideways, foward, or backwards, what matters to me is to stop sliding, or if need be slow the sliding, then get control of where u wanna slide to.

    Take that shit home and park it in the fucking weeds
    CHODA = 620/989 = 9.5 @ 144
    TURBO 5.3 = 442/489 = 12.8 @ 104

  25. #75
    On A Leash Because I Was Naughty Jack's Avatar
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    When I slide down hills on the brakes... it usually means i don't want to go down the hill. reverse is better than sliding into a pond
    Updating...
    Jeep SRT8 for now...

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